6.11.2007

To Chew On...

It appears I can't do much of anything today. My head is floating somewhere between the troposhpere and the stratosphere, which occasionally both spin wildly out of control for several seconds, causing me to reevaluate my priorities today. Since the bank will just have to wait for my mammoth deposit until tomorrow, I truly hope this delay does not send North America into financial chaos. In the meantime, as my blanket and book are calling me, I will just empty some links and things from my word page so I can close it up and put my computer to sleep...

Here's a wee topic that a few of us (friends, husband, those pesky nieces of mine...) have been discussing for the last week or so...

Question: What will happen to those who have never heard the gospel?

So while I chew on my Hall's cherry throat lozenge, here might be some interesting things to chew on regarding that question...

*What happens to those who have never heard the gospel?
http://www.carm.org/email/skep_neverheard.htm

*What about those who've never heard the gospel?
http://www.carm.org/dialogues/neverheard.htm

*Will Those Who Have Never Heard the Gospel Be Lost?
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/469

*What happens to those who have never heard the gospel?
John Piper audio HERE
(-desiringgod.org)

*Is God biased? Is it fair to save only some?
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/godfair.html

And I thought I'd throw this one in for good measure:

*Answers to Bible contradictions and objections:
http://www.rationalchristianity.net/apol_index.html

*[THIS IS ALREADY THE MOST VIEWED POST OF THE MONTH]


Update: Here's another one I found:
Is Hell Unfair? by Walter Martin
christianworldviewnetwork.com
Posted by carla at 10:32
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8 comments:

Sarafina said...

Oh dear, yes, I was thinking of you and your rained-out yard sale on Saturday...so sad to miss it.
Looks like one of your PESKY nieces has some reading to do today! Thanks for the links.

Mon Jun 11, 12:00:00 PM PDT
Vee said...

Act 17:26-27 And He made every nation of men of one blood, to live on all the face of the earth, ordaining fore-appointed seasons and boundaries of their dwelling, to seek the Lord, if perhaps they might feel after Him and might find Him, though indeed He not being far from each one of us.

I believe wholeheartedly that the above scripture is talking of the Providence of God. Meaning this, that with a truthful and seeking heart, God will provide the answer to that honest question. That question being — How do I know Him? — Who is He? — And who is this UNKNOWN GOD?

He will not in all His providence allow a Buddhist, Islamist or even a person from the remotest part of the world, anyone for that matter, who is genuinely seeking for the absolute truth, humbly as a sinner whose works are recognized by the seeker as filthy rags and in the full knowledge of his sinful and fallen nature to continue without the truth being revealed in some way by some miraculous act of God. Whether it is by bringing someone into that person’s life that knows Jesus already and is willing to share the Gospel, or another way, who is to say that God cannot do this if He be the Almighty God. Who can be dogmatic about what God can an cannot do when there is a sinner who has recognized himself as that.

I believe that not one in heaven would not have heard of the Greatest Name above all Names.
I believe in Gods providence in the desperate situations of those who truly seek for Him. His name is exalted above all others. When people ask me - "What about those who are good people and who have since the cross died never hearing the name of Jesus?" Well, I am guessing that there may be no such thing… why would you limit God and His intervention and His providence in that person’s life when God truly knows their heart and their search for Him or even the lack of it.

Maybe the question should be rephrased; maybe it should not be "What about those people who have died since the resurrection and have never heard of Jesus? But rather, why haven't those people heard of the Name above all Names! Perhaps they are not truly in their heart of heart seekers of God.

Mon Jun 11, 02:43:00 PM PDT
Anonymous said...

You raise a very good point Vee. But one thing I struggle with, is Romans 9:22. Just wondering what your thoughts on this verse might be?

Mon Jun 11, 06:46:00 PM PDT
carla said...

To my nieces, I love you to pieces. ☺

To Vee, hey, great thoughts.

Here is the verse Anonymous is referring to by the way:
“What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?” Romans 9:22

Here's what my Bible commentary says about this...that “the vessels of wrath are those whose sins make them subject to God’s wrath. They are prepared for destruction by their own sin, disobedience, and rebellion, and not by some arbitrary decree of God.” (Bible Believer’s Commentary, William MacDonald)

I also read in one of those links a similar question: “What about the 'innocent' person in the African jungle who has never heard?” And the answer to that is… that sounds nice but there are no innocent people, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (Romans 3:23)

Regarding the next verse (23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory), my commentary says:

“God’s sovereignty is never exercised in condemning men who ought to be saved, but rather it has resulted in the salvation of men who ought to be lost.”

So I guess the question might not be “What happens to those who have never heard the gospel?”, but rather, “Why is it that God has allowed ANY to hear the gospel, and saved even one lost soul like me?”

And the answer to that is...
BECAUSE. Because He is God and gets to do what He wants. So I guess I'll just have leave the difficult things up to Him.

Mon Jun 11, 07:26:00 PM PDT
Vee said...

Good question Anony. I would firstly like to take the verse Rom 9:22 in context and see if I can glean anything from the chapter and from the Old Testament. I will also look up some commentaries that I have on my PC and paste what I think would be of valuable opinion. Italics will be scripture and commentary.
Rom 9:17-23 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very thing I raised you up, so that I might display My power in you, and so that My name might be publicized in all the earth." (Ex. 9:16) So, then, to whom He desires, He shows mercy. And to whom He desires, He hardens. You will then say to me, Why does He yet find fault? For who has resisted His will? Yes, rather, O man, who are you answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it, Why did You make me like this? (Isa. 29:16) Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the one lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor? (Jer. 18:6) But if God, desiring to demonstrate His wrath, and to make His power known, endured in much long-suffering vessels of wrath having been fitted out for and that He make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He before prepared for glory,

The word “hardeneth” means only to harden in the manner specified in the case of Pharaoh. It does not mean to exert a positive influence, but to leave a sinner to his own course, and to place him in circumstances where the character will be more and more developed see; John 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes" and "has hardened their heart," "that they might not see with the eyes" and "understand with the heart," "and be converted," "and I should heal them." Isa. 6:10

It implies, however, an act of sovereignty on the part of God in thus leaving him to his chosen course, and in not putting forth that influence by which he could be saved from death.

The premise here is that people who reject the truth will become hardened of heart, like Pharaoh. But we notice that Pharaoh was given many chances but instead became increasingly hardened to the truth. Not only that but according to the passage in John 12:40 People have been blinded and hardened so that they may not see or understand so that they cannot be converted or healed. How do we reconcile that? By looking at God’s longsuffering heart towards Pharaoh, how many chances did he get? There is a point when people have had God speak to them over and over yet they still will themselves against the truth. So much so that in the end they become willfully blind. Even if we look at what happens in the last days God Himself sends a delusion so strong to those who will not see the truth. These people are a bit like Pharaoh.

I understand that comment could possibly lead into the 'Free Will' vs 'Pre-destined' category and even so far as the 'Calvinism' vs. 'Arminian' debate. And this topic can get very heated and I have to say that it is one that I don’t feel compelled or drawn into even though I do lean towards Arminian while rejecting completely the Pelegian heresy. Both sides of the fence call either side a damnable heresy and a doctrine straight from the pit of hell. I just don’t want to go there because of my understanding of God’s Mercy and Grace that is held in high tension together with His Judgment and Wrath.

I have a fallible mind and trying to reconcile seemingly paradoxical doctrines and scriptures seriously does my head in. But what I can show from my understanding is that God is all of these (and much more of course) and how He interferes in Historical linear time is something that He does in fact do. I can say with 100% certainty that He does shape me, but I also have free will. I am neither a puppet or a master and I am a vessel that He has shaped but I have also surrendered my will to be shaped. Although at times I do resist. Is my will stronger than His, or is He just long suffering? I think the later.

Both 'Free Will' and 'Pre-destination' has been argued biblically for centuries and both have very good arguments. I can honestly say that I see that both views (Free Will/Predestination) must be held in tension with one another. Even if they are seemingly opposing, it is one of the great mysteries because Gods ways are just that! Remember God says:
Isa 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

But I do know that a merciful God who hears the crying pangs of a repentant sinner will bestow upon that sinner Grace.

The below explains a little bit of God's will in showing His wrath because of obstinate ( those who become willfully blind) unbelief.

What if God, being willing - Referring to Rom 9:18-19. That is, although it was now his will, because of their obstinate unbelief, to show his wrath - Which necessarily presupposes sin. And to make his power known - This is repeated from Rom 9:17. Yet endured - As he did Pharaoh. With much longsuffering - Which should have led them to repentance. The vessels of wrath - Those who had moved his wrath by still rejecting his mercy. Fitted for destruction - By their own willful and final impenitence. Is there any injustice in this?

No, there is not injustice at all.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

The Greek 'Willing' Willing (θέλων) Although willing, not because. Referring not to the determinate purpose of God, but to His spontaneous will growing out of His holy character. In the former sense, the meaning would be that God's long-suffering was designed to enhance the final penalty. The emphatic position of willing prepares the way for the contrast with long-suffering. Though this holy will would lead Him to show His wrath, yet He withheld His wrath and endured.

I don't think we should use this chapter, which uses the illustration of Pharaoh's hardened heart and the long suffering of God to build a doctrine for either 'Calvinism' or 'Arminianism' or indeed 'Pre-destination' vs 'Free-Will'.

This chapter illustrates to me that man left to his own un-repentant self will become a vessel of wrath because God's will is that His Holiness which can have no part of evil, is and indeed has to be revealed at some point. So yes, God's hand is in that also, but only after His long suffering does He see fit to exercise his will for mans destruction. Also, we must remember that God did send Moses and Aaron who were collectively the mouthpiece of God to Pharaoh and Pharaoh chose to not hear with open ears, so he became willfully blind.

On the other hand man who is repentant has God’s mercy bestowed upon him and he becomes a vessel of mercy which God has also had His hand in. And He must because He is Merciful.

Both points illustrate God’s nature toward mans will (as He is bound by His nature and His Word) and mans will becoming shaped and formed to manifest God’s nature.

Whether mans will is obstinate or submissive both have outcomes that is within the Will of God. It is a marriage somewhat.

Rom 9:23 and that He make known the riches of His glory on vessels of mercy which He before prepared for glory,

I cannot (and will not) argue from only one side of this centuries old debate, but I can say that God is Merciful and Long Suffering, but He is also Holy and Righteous. And because of this He does at the end of it have to show His Holiness which is to set Himself apart from anything unholy including willfully blind obstinate sinful creatures that have been left to their own devices, who then at the day of judgment, have not the name of Jesus or His blood covering them because their ears did not hear it or their eyes could not see because of their willful blindness.

Does this make any sense at all? Or have I obfuscated and confused things more?

Mon Jun 11, 10:21:00 PM PDT
carla said...

Well it certainly looks like the title for this post was appropriate. Lots here to chew on.

Mon Jun 11, 10:27:00 PM PDT
Anonymous said...

I needed to read your answer slowly Vee. As I read on and got to the end, it did all make sense - as far as my wee little mind can comprehend such deep things.

I feel like I've sat through an important class at Bible School!

Thank you so much!!

Tue Jun 12, 06:19:00 AM PDT
Vee said...

Trust me Anony, I had to read it through several times to make sure it made sense and said what I wanted it to say.

Personally, I would like to thank you for getting me to take delve into the Word. I really enjoyed my bible study yesterday.

Tue Jun 12, 04:27:00 PM PDT

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